With reference to your link with the Socialist Worker, issue 2876, and the article written by its editor, “Rejoice as Palestinian resistance humiliates racist Israel”, I found the use of the word ‘rejoice’ particularly disgusting. This appeared on page 4 of the 11–17 October 2023 issue, but was written on Monday 9 October, just two days after the Hamas pogrom. It conjures images of Mrs Thatcher’s triumphalist cry on the steps of 10 Downing Street when she urged Britain to ‘Rejoice!’ after the recapture of South Georgia during the 1982 Falklands War. For a ‘socialist’ paper to use the same exhortation after the dreadful atrocities perpetrated by Hamas is horrifyingly obnoxious and demonstrates the utter vulgarity of ‘left-wing’ anti-Semitism.
It ought to be possible after all this time for some observer to produce reasonable estimates of what propertion of the marchers just want the killing to stop and what proporion want to see the destruction of Israel (and thus want at lot more killing). But it seems clear that the organisers of the marches have made no attempt to exclude the latter from the marches, and as long as they are a big part of them, the term 'hate march' seems reasonable.
The march organizers, wherever they are being held, would never police their marches for antisemitic incitement because they have given dispensation to Hamas to commit atrocities that are blatantly war crimes because just as terms like "apartheid", "colonialism," "genocide" and "indigeneity" have been redefined specifically for the Israel / Palestine conflict, it's "resistance".
Then you are a well-meaning idiot. Who, exactly is going to being about a "secular state with equal rights for all peoples"? Hamas? The surrounding Arab states? Are you serious? Have you read the Hamas Charter? Do you think the major Arab states are secular or promote equal rights? Even the PLO dropped the slogan of a "democratic secular state" because they realised it was completely unachievable (even if desirable) and adopted a two states stance - the traditional position of leftists and communists in the region and internationally.
Israel is already supposed to be a democratic state with equal rights, except of course it is politically organised to favour one ethno-religious group. I very much doubt that this is sustainable but true democracy may well be decades away.
And why do you think a single state would be more successful in Israel-Palestine than in Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, the Indian subcontinent, or the British Isles?
Israel is more like South Africa. There is no future for a country that practises settler-colonialism, apartheid and occupation, favouring one group over others. A reconciliation process will obviously be very hard.
I like the part where he writes: It seems odd that one has to say: Killing civilians, old people, even babies, is always wrong. But today say it one must. How can educated people justify such callousness and embrace such inhumanity?
That article by Windbag has serious historical errors and has been taken apart. I can give you an excellent reading list on Israel and colonialism should you want to be properly informed..
The alternatives are two states, which most people think is finished and in any case leaves Israel as an ethnostate, or permanent siege, apartheid and occupation in 'greater Israel'. I have more faith in the long term in humanity.
Two states is not an easy solution but it is the only just one that stands any realistic chance of being achieved. It also happens to be the position of the PLO/Fatah and of most communists and socialists in the region.
What’s wrong with an ethonstate? If there were 2 states there would be two ethnostates. It’s safer to have two states than incorporate Hamas into one state.
Can you name a single country which only allows one religion to be practised but is at the same time NOT a democracy but a dictatorship ruled by a single priesthood and their religious police? Do you think most Israelis want that?
Yes funny how that is. Other countries can fight wars where civilians die. Muslims get ethnostates as do Japanese. Koreans. Others. But Jews. Omg how dare they.
It's tough for right wing Jews in London for sure - I feel their pain as a fellow Jew. It's a hard life when you have to postpone a trip to Selfridges. It's on a par with the 10,000 dead kids in Gaza.
Perhaps Dave has published posts where he expresses shock and disgust at the numbers of Palestinians slaughtered. So my apologies if that is the case. But I find it shockingly callous to quibble over the numbers, mostly accepted to be 70 percent women and small children. I'm not a Jew but I grieve when I see a photo of a mom who has just learned that her son has been killed and I was immeasurably sorry for the little girl trapped in a car with her dead family who called for help with the words: "I'm afraid. You will find me? You will come get me?" Later found dead.
To quibble about the numbers at this point betrays a mind utterly out of touch with its own humanity. Another kind of victim--a mind with a dead soul.
It’s not quibbling. Anyone with a brain would know that. The numbers come from rapists and butchers (Hamas) who have t stated that a single Hamas terrorist has died in fighting. Who don’t know where the hostages are and don’t know how many are alive (so they claim). Who never built bomb shelters in Gaza but used about a billion dollars for tunnels and terror infrastructure.
The topic here is no go zones for Jews. Not your attempt at chastising the author for not sharing your moral preening based on the word of barbarians.
You may not be as young as you were but does that mean you think being a mature person means hardening your heart to the children who have been murdered by your tribe? The greatest number of victims of this war by far, have been Palestinian women and children.
You don't like the number 30,000? How about 20,000, ten thousand? Can a moral, caring adult person not feel pity for even one bereaved mother or one little girl left to die alone amid the corpses of her family? Have you lost your soul? Or is it simply frozen with hate and fear?
Oh I see how it is for you hamas apologist. You believe the stats of the Hamas ministry of savagery. Of rapists and murderers. And you see yourself as the arbiter of who can share an opinion or not. Jews can’t even write about their issues without genuflecting to you and your false ideas. You are a racist, you see yourself as the master that we (our tribe as you put it) need your permission to share our thoughts. . It’s always the Jew hater like you who needs Jews to bow down to them. No opinions unless you say it’s ok.
War sucks. Next time tell your buddy Sinwar (who’s using kidnapped Israelis as human shields hiding in his fancy tunnel with one of his wives) not to start a war. He loves Palestinian deaths; they never built a single bomb shelter to protect its citizens there but spent billions of dollars on a tunnel system bigger than the London metro. Remember Hamas has been sending rockets to Israel by the thousands since 2005 and October war began with thousands but you are so stunned , just stunned, the Gaza gets bombed back. Well ask yourself why no protect for these people? It’s on Sinwar the architect of this entire project.
And please realize that no Jew is going to ask for your permission to discuss our pain and our issues in any forum.
With reference to your link with the Socialist Worker, issue 2876, and the article written by its editor, “Rejoice as Palestinian resistance humiliates racist Israel”, I found the use of the word ‘rejoice’ particularly disgusting. This appeared on page 4 of the 11–17 October 2023 issue, but was written on Monday 9 October, just two days after the Hamas pogrom. It conjures images of Mrs Thatcher’s triumphalist cry on the steps of 10 Downing Street when she urged Britain to ‘Rejoice!’ after the recapture of South Georgia during the 1982 Falklands War. For a ‘socialist’ paper to use the same exhortation after the dreadful atrocities perpetrated by Hamas is horrifyingly obnoxious and demonstrates the utter vulgarity of ‘left-wing’ anti-Semitism.
It ought to be possible after all this time for some observer to produce reasonable estimates of what propertion of the marchers just want the killing to stop and what proporion want to see the destruction of Israel (and thus want at lot more killing). But it seems clear that the organisers of the marches have made no attempt to exclude the latter from the marches, and as long as they are a big part of them, the term 'hate march' seems reasonable.
The march organizers, wherever they are being held, would never police their marches for antisemitic incitement because they have given dispensation to Hamas to commit atrocities that are blatantly war crimes because just as terms like "apartheid", "colonialism," "genocide" and "indigeneity" have been redefined specifically for the Israel / Palestine conflict, it's "resistance".
The point is the intimidation.
I was on the march yesterday - I want the 'destruction of Israel' but only in favour of a secular state with equal rights for all peoples.
Then you are a well-meaning idiot. Who, exactly is going to being about a "secular state with equal rights for all peoples"? Hamas? The surrounding Arab states? Are you serious? Have you read the Hamas Charter? Do you think the major Arab states are secular or promote equal rights? Even the PLO dropped the slogan of a "democratic secular state" because they realised it was completely unachievable (even if desirable) and adopted a two states stance - the traditional position of leftists and communists in the region and internationally.
Israel is already supposed to be a democratic state with equal rights, except of course it is politically organised to favour one ethno-religious group. I very much doubt that this is sustainable but true democracy may well be decades away.
You are my enemy. You are on the side of the Nazis of Hamas.
And why do you think a single state would be more successful in Israel-Palestine than in Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, the Indian subcontinent, or the British Isles?
Israel is more like South Africa. There is no future for a country that practises settler-colonialism, apartheid and occupation, favouring one group over others. A reconciliation process will obviously be very hard.
You are either deeply deeply ignorant or a lying Nazi.
If you think settler colonialism is relevant concept here, you should read this:
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/10/decolonization-narrative-dangerous-and-false/675799/
I like the part where he writes: It seems odd that one has to say: Killing civilians, old people, even babies, is always wrong. But today say it one must. How can educated people justify such callousness and embrace such inhumanity?
That article by Windbag has serious historical errors and has been taken apart. I can give you an excellent reading list on Israel and colonialism should you want to be properly informed..
Who are you?
We saw how that was going to work on October 7. Do you have a brain or did it fall out?
The alternatives are two states, which most people think is finished and in any case leaves Israel as an ethnostate, or permanent siege, apartheid and occupation in 'greater Israel'. I have more faith in the long term in humanity.
Two states is not an easy solution but it is the only just one that stands any realistic chance of being achieved. It also happens to be the position of the PLO/Fatah and of most communists and socialists in the region.
What’s wrong with an ethonstate? If there were 2 states there would be two ethnostates. It’s safer to have two states than incorporate Hamas into one state.
Ethno states are fine for the Muslims. There are dozens. Only Jews are not allowed to have one.
Can you name a single country which only allows one religion to be practised but is at the same time NOT a democracy but a dictatorship ruled by a single priesthood and their religious police? Do you think most Israelis want that?
Yes funny how that is. Other countries can fight wars where civilians die. Muslims get ethnostates as do Japanese. Koreans. Others. But Jews. Omg how dare they.
It's tough for right wing Jews in London for sure - I feel their pain as a fellow Jew. It's a hard life when you have to postpone a trip to Selfridges. It's on a par with the 10,000 dead kids in Gaza.
Perhaps Dave has published posts where he expresses shock and disgust at the numbers of Palestinians slaughtered. So my apologies if that is the case. But I find it shockingly callous to quibble over the numbers, mostly accepted to be 70 percent women and small children. I'm not a Jew but I grieve when I see a photo of a mom who has just learned that her son has been killed and I was immeasurably sorry for the little girl trapped in a car with her dead family who called for help with the words: "I'm afraid. You will find me? You will come get me?" Later found dead.
To quibble about the numbers at this point betrays a mind utterly out of touch with its own humanity. Another kind of victim--a mind with a dead soul.
It’s not quibbling. Anyone with a brain would know that. The numbers come from rapists and butchers (Hamas) who have t stated that a single Hamas terrorist has died in fighting. Who don’t know where the hostages are and don’t know how many are alive (so they claim). Who never built bomb shelters in Gaza but used about a billion dollars for tunnels and terror infrastructure.
The topic here is no go zones for Jews. Not your attempt at chastising the author for not sharing your moral preening based on the word of barbarians.
You may not be as young as you were but does that mean you think being a mature person means hardening your heart to the children who have been murdered by your tribe? The greatest number of victims of this war by far, have been Palestinian women and children.
You don't like the number 30,000? How about 20,000, ten thousand? Can a moral, caring adult person not feel pity for even one bereaved mother or one little girl left to die alone amid the corpses of her family? Have you lost your soul? Or is it simply frozen with hate and fear?
Oh I see how it is for you hamas apologist. You believe the stats of the Hamas ministry of savagery. Of rapists and murderers. And you see yourself as the arbiter of who can share an opinion or not. Jews can’t even write about their issues without genuflecting to you and your false ideas. You are a racist, you see yourself as the master that we (our tribe as you put it) need your permission to share our thoughts. . It’s always the Jew hater like you who needs Jews to bow down to them. No opinions unless you say it’s ok.
War sucks. Next time tell your buddy Sinwar (who’s using kidnapped Israelis as human shields hiding in his fancy tunnel with one of his wives) not to start a war. He loves Palestinian deaths; they never built a single bomb shelter to protect its citizens there but spent billions of dollars on a tunnel system bigger than the London metro. Remember Hamas has been sending rockets to Israel by the thousands since 2005 and October war began with thousands but you are so stunned , just stunned, the Gaza gets bombed back. Well ask yourself why no protect for these people? It’s on Sinwar the architect of this entire project.
And please realize that no Jew is going to ask for your permission to discuss our pain and our issues in any forum.
Just foaming at the mouth, aren't you. No adults in this room?
Doug Wilton
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/mar/09/authoritarians-once-again-creating-fear-as-pretext-for-suppressing-right-to-protest