Disagree. Seeing this as a nazi salute is no different from Starmer stating that people who were angry after the Southport killings, as far right. As a Jew myself, I’m obviously not keen on the nazis, but that’s not what happened on that stage by Musk. He may be a lot of nasty things, just like Tommy Robinson, but neither of them are nazis.
As I said on your earlier post, I don't think this was a Nazi salute. Looking at the rest of the speech, and knowing Musk's obsession with Roman emperors, I think this was probably his attempt at being Caesar to the adoring Colosseum. The idea that Musk would march on stage and do Nazi salutes is extraordinary, and requires extraordinary evidence, and not just some "yeh but he supports Trump" cop-out. It's also really not true to say he hasn't denied that it was a Nazi salute - he's called the accusation "propaganda" and a "duty trick". I think if we're honest it wouldn't make the slightest difference what he said afterwards anyway - everyone has already made up their minds.
I watched the video and thought exactly the opposite from you. The gesture matched his words, which at that moment were about giving heartfelt appreciation to the crowd. It went sideways in a swung arc - not forwards like a true Nazi salute does - and resembles gestures I've seen other prominent people and politicians make quite innocently. As his mum immediately pointed out, when she posted pics online of Obama, Hilary Clinton, George W Bush and Kamala each with a raised outstretched arm and downward facing open palm.
IMO the reason Musk is trolling the outrage-reaction with his Nazi-name puns is that he thinks the accusation is so ludicrous (given his history of support for Israel and Jews) and disingenuous (because it's coming from people like AOC).
Conveying an antisemitic message or image is an antisemitic action, whether the person conveying it defines him/herself as antisemitic or not. Antisemitism is not a matter of identity (I am or I’m not antisemitic), if it were almost nobody would be antisemitic now, they all defined them as something else, like antizionists. This in turn could be done in good or bad faith. Congruence with other actions is not required either, there are Jewish people conveying antisemitic messages under all type of definitions.
Hard to know precisely what he meant or his exact motives, but given his support for Yaxley Lennon and AfD, the milieu he hangs around with on his platform and the worst of the MAGA world, I think he knew what he was doing.
But as you rightly say, he can can play it off as some sort of trolling to own the libs. Albeit with a nudge and wink to the he worst of MAGA world.
He knows how it will be received by the far right who he has sought to curry favour with. But he can play the 'but did I do that?' game with a media who are trying to be too fair to him.
It's Putinist in its style. Make everything a joke. Annihilate any idea of truth.
Disagree. Seeing this as a nazi salute is no different from Starmer stating that people who were angry after the Southport killings, as far right. As a Jew myself, I’m obviously not keen on the nazis, but that’s not what happened on that stage by Musk. He may be a lot of nasty things, just like Tommy Robinson, but neither of them are nazis.
As I said on your earlier post, I don't think this was a Nazi salute. Looking at the rest of the speech, and knowing Musk's obsession with Roman emperors, I think this was probably his attempt at being Caesar to the adoring Colosseum. The idea that Musk would march on stage and do Nazi salutes is extraordinary, and requires extraordinary evidence, and not just some "yeh but he supports Trump" cop-out. It's also really not true to say he hasn't denied that it was a Nazi salute - he's called the accusation "propaganda" and a "duty trick". I think if we're honest it wouldn't make the slightest difference what he said afterwards anyway - everyone has already made up their minds.
I watched the video and thought exactly the opposite from you. The gesture matched his words, which at that moment were about giving heartfelt appreciation to the crowd. It went sideways in a swung arc - not forwards like a true Nazi salute does - and resembles gestures I've seen other prominent people and politicians make quite innocently. As his mum immediately pointed out, when she posted pics online of Obama, Hilary Clinton, George W Bush and Kamala each with a raised outstretched arm and downward facing open palm.
IMO the reason Musk is trolling the outrage-reaction with his Nazi-name puns is that he thinks the accusation is so ludicrous (given his history of support for Israel and Jews) and disingenuous (because it's coming from people like AOC).
Maybe he was also testing the waters, seeing what he can get away with. He has got away with it, after all.
I agree 100% with Dave on this. The troll is signaling to several different audiences deliberately most likely based on his past actions and behavior.
Conveying an antisemitic message or image is an antisemitic action, whether the person conveying it defines him/herself as antisemitic or not. Antisemitism is not a matter of identity (I am or I’m not antisemitic), if it were almost nobody would be antisemitic now, they all defined them as something else, like antizionists. This in turn could be done in good or bad faith. Congruence with other actions is not required either, there are Jewish people conveying antisemitic messages under all type of definitions.
The man is even more sickening than he was the day before.
Hard to know precisely what he meant or his exact motives, but given his support for Yaxley Lennon and AfD, the milieu he hangs around with on his platform and the worst of the MAGA world, I think he knew what he was doing.
But as you rightly say, he can can play it off as some sort of trolling to own the libs. Albeit with a nudge and wink to the he worst of MAGA world.
He knows how it will be received by the far right who he has sought to curry favour with. But he can play the 'but did I do that?' game with a media who are trying to be too fair to him.
It's Putinist in its style. Make everything a joke. Annihilate any idea of truth.
“Instead, we ought to focus simply on what people do and the impact it has, even if it doesn’t add up in a way that makes sense.”
Indeed, play the ball rather than the player.
When it is Musk, I always tend to think the worst.
The nazis may very well have stolen it from the ancient roman "gladiator salute" used before entering battle. Look it up.
No such gladiator salute in Ancient Rome, pure fiction used in films.
Thanks.