It is so hard to get a Jewish voice heard unless you are one of the ‘ as a Jew ‘ crowd. There are so many speaking out but if you post anywhere you get taken down or the hate is too intense. You cannot get books or articles picked up and so on.
Saying that , facts are irrelevant on this fight. Mostly it is a waste of time .
What we need is the strong non Jewish voice to be heard especially from government and justice, sport, media and art . Sadly that is what is lacking and not just lacking but actively hostile and complicit in this hate
Well said Jayne .. we have the likes of Douglas Murray, Colonel Richard Kemp and Brendan O’Neill. They need to be given a loud platform to speak, but with that, comes huge protection costs. They may also object to being in that spotlight.
There are many other advocates speaking up for Israel whose names I can’t fully recall .. Luai Ahmed a Yemeni born Swede and Loay Alshareef from the UAE.
Israel, together with the power of the diaspora should launch a worldwide campaign to educate the useful idiots and the misinformed. Providing knowledge to challenge the hate and prejudice which exists.
I prefer to defer to Sarah Hurwitz’s reclamation of the “as a Jew” moniker (it speaks to the majority of us, anyway) and I find it nourishing in its sanity, knowledge, and emotional and spiritual intellect. I share your call for non-jews to … well … grow a pair and speak out and call out (with educated voices) against antisemitism and hold antisemites of all types accountable (and not merely platform them as Theroux, Rogan and others do). We should also be demanding A LOT more Muslims, Arabs and all Westerners to be calling out jihadism, in general as the violence and colonialist-minded spread of that movement is at the heart of so much danger and death of millions.
I tried to speak out in the progressive professional space I inhabit. I wrote a long, clear and detailed description of the issues of antisemitism in our space; how only the 'right kind' of Jews are heard or platformed, and of the penalties and dismissal of Jews who support Israel.. resulting in the effective silencing of mainstream Jewish thought, or even information that counters what is being freely put out about Israel, etc. I sent it to the Jewish leadership in that community. (who are totally ideologically possessed by progressivism) and got in response recycled libels and glad-handing (Oh, yes...we care about antisemitism! It's all right wing antisemitism.. and Israel is causing antisemitism...) There is no way to be heard, I've been essentially drummed out of my professional circles.
Ditto. I am not Jewish but when I tried to suggest a student at my university, whose work I was moderating, shouldn’t get a first class degree mark for depicting Israelis as vermin ‘spreading disease’ in her ‘home’, I was told that no offence had been meant & the result of the bureaucratic waste-of-time that ensued (after I pushed for an investigation) was that this was not ‘technically’ antisemitic. Because one of the Jewish anti Zionists on the faculty said so. (The other Jewish lecturer resigned)
Within the progressive paradigm, Jews are white/white adjacent and so automatically not entitled to a State - with any resistance to that position being genocide.
There are many of us on “the Left” or who are “Liberal” or “Progressive” who have been (long) horrified by and called out the antisemites in our communities, particularly as it undermines the very ideals we stand for, including being staunch, roped and unapologetically and informed Zionists. I urge you to seek out the interview that author Sarah Hurwitz did with Dan Senor and read her book, As a Jew.
I’ve heard so many ugly, antisemitic things over the past two years, said out loud and left unchallenged, and it’s shaken me deeply. Part of me wants to stay quiet to protect my peace, yet another part burns with anger and cannot stay silent. I know how futile it can feel to reason with minds already made up, yet saying nothing feels painful too. More and more, I am guided by the long lens, wanting to protect my children and any future grandchildren, and trying to choose carefully when to hold my tongue and when to honour my truth. Thanks Dave. With warmth and a tired heart, Debbie.
Indeed. We have also heard so many ugly things from Jewish supremacists that are giving the Nazis a run for their money yet we are yet to see any consequences of that kind of nastiness. It’s not okay to be a genocidal Jewish supremacist. There is a cost for that to pay.
If you aren’t already, I recommend following @NeverAlone. And reading Sarah Hurwitz’s book, As a Jew (or just find some of the interviews she has given, including the one she did with Dan Senor and NeverAlong)
About time. I am not Jewish, I am so done with reasonable responses to a cult who has plainly demonstrated since Oct 7 that their pets had crossed a line even for them,the speed at which they turned themselves inside out was chilling, the reactions were pre planned actions. The WORD came from somewhere at sickening speed. And they all bowed down. I am a nobody in the great scheme of things but I won't reason with or rebut. I have attacked from the off. They can show me their f.........ing pockets, was that a Qatari note I spied?? People who tried to guilt me for Pallenazi suffering and 'the good Jews said' got short shrift. Here's something to think about, some of these people started to private message me, were 'nice' to me. I told them not to, I preferred to answer them generally, in a group as I would never knowingly speak to a rapist or rape supporter in real life. No quarter given. I saw Jews asking their non Jewish friends to speak out. I did not. I had social media friends with whom I agreed on most things and would defend if they were wronged. It took them months to comment on my posts, several have come out in support of Israel and Jews in general. Of their own volition. Their conscience won. STOP being nice to people who would harm you. Rant over, much love to my Jewish friends, we just haven't met. Yet.
Something that stood out to me from your article: 'And all the while, Jewish voices try to patiently explain the facts, as if facts are all these people are missing.' It may be because of the circles I move in, it may be because we're scared to speak out, but I am so unaware of strong Jewish voices with mainstream or 'progressive' cut-through. From my experience, that does form part of the problem, whether certain people would be inclined to listen to those voices or not.
They get immediate;y silenced or thrown out. The only “progressive-except-when-it-comes-to-us Jewish voices admitted into the mainstream are either part of the problem, including cutting out legitimate progressive Jewish and unapologetically Zionist voices. So I just seek them out more and try to promote them more (especially to other Jews and allies and people who think they are allies but aren’t really doing a good job). I like Sarah Hurwitz, the folks from the Hartmann Institute, Hen Mazzig, in particular. I also look for progressive Israeli Zionist voices (Jewish and non-Jewish) who are excellent at showcasing life in Israel. (Again, Hen Mazzig, Noa Tishby, the comedian YonGruber and so many others).
Strangely Dave doesn't mention the Palestinians and their right to resist as an occupied people and the genocide committed by Israel and the IDF. I wonder if it were Jews penned into Gaza he'd think differently.
Also Dave knows full well that the racist right love Israel because it's an ethno-state. Why does he think Tommy Robinson gets such a warm welcome?
And does he approve of Maccabi Tel Aviv fans gloating in the death of Palestinian children? The club itself recognises it has racist fans.
As for Bobby Vylan and Louis Theroux, they come across as decent compassionate people. At the end of the day you either believe in human rights for all or you don't.
And what does Dave mean by a cost? What more does he want - as though there hasn't been 10 years or more of the Israel lobby exacting costs on us.
The fact you go straight to Gaza and the “Israel Lobby” as a justification for whatever people want to say and do about Jews makes you very much part of the problem.
You didn't mention the Palestinians and the genocide and war crimes perpetrated by Israel. If you think this is minor detail you're mistaken.
You misrepresented what was said in Theroux's interview for your political end not for truth.
I don't understand what more cost you want - you have reliable Zionist administrations in the west and authoritarian action taken in many places against Palestinian voices - at universities, action groups, doctors... You got rid of socialists in Labour including many Jewish socialists. You've even got the government siding with racist football thugs.
What do you mean by the “right to resist as an occupied people"? What does it include and not include? Without some clarification, how can anybody know whether they agree or disagree with you? And how is Tommy Robinson relevant? Do you have any evidence that Rich supports Robinson and those in Israel who like him? And what do you understand by "zionists" and what would be involved fighting them, as favoured by the “compassionate” Mr Vylan? And what exactly is the goal of the armed resistance that you with Mr Vylan seem to favour? Is it just to kill as many Jews as possible? Or do you have something a bit more positive in mind? And how do you feel about the fact that the Jewish community experiences more religious hate crime per head than any other community in the UK? Is that a matter of no concern to you? Do you think the Palestinian people benefit in some way from this situation? It's hard to see how they could.
Louis was stating fact that Jewish exceptionalism is ceased on by the far right as justification for ethno-nationalism - you'd have to living in a bunker not to know this.
I'm Jewish but the wrong sort of Jew for Dave Rich - a socialist Jew. Antisemitism is a minor prejudice in the UK but saying that doesn't defend Israel or sell books. Or get a very well paid job at the CST!
And of course like Dave you have no words for the Palestinian genocide.
I totally agree. You should never defend the right to rape or murder.
Rape is never OK (CBS):
> A member of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's Likud party, speaking Monday at a meeting of lawmakers, justified the rape and abuse of Palestinian prisoners, shouting angrily at colleagues questioning the alleged behavior that anything was legitimate to do to "terrorists" in custody.
> Lawmaker Hanoch Milwidsky was asked as he defended the alleged abuse whether it was legitimate, "to insert a stick into a person's rectum?"
> "Yes!" he shouted in reply to his fellow parliamentarian. "If he is a Nukhba [Hamas militant], everything is legitimate to do! Everything!"
Murder is never OK (Ch14):
> A heated confrontation at the cabinet meeting regarding those approaching the yellow line in the Gaza Strip:
> Deputy Chief of Staff: Adults shoot at them, but a child and a donkey stop them.
> Ben Gvir: We must shoot at a child and a donkey too! Enough with being merciful and accepting what happened until October 6.
> Dichter: "It’s like the field operative who worked with the Bedouin sheikh and asked him who lives here and who lives there. And that Bedouin didn’t give any information.
> He saw someone riding a donkey from afar, asked who was on the donkey, and still got no information. So the field operative asked him, ‘Who’s the donkey, the one below or the one above?’ And he answered, ‘The donkey is the one who can’t tell the difference between them.’
> We don’t have to jump straight to saying we need to shoot at everyone who approaches the fence. The military people are here, and I really hope they’re not listening to you."
> Ben Gvir: Yes, we must shoot! Because it’s like what happened with King Saul, who at first spared the sheep, then the donkeys, then the children, then the women, then the terrorists—anyone who approaches needs to know they’re taking a risk!
> Defense Minister Katz concluded: Anyone who approaches the fence needs to know they will be harmed.
Assume its true, this lawmaker is a moron. Except Marc is justifying rape and mass murder of completely innocent people so he is clearly far, far worse.
Where did I justify that? There was no mass rape in any case as no evidence has been put forward, just as there were no beheaded babies - and the Israel has been found to have killed a lot of their own on 7 October.
My point is occupied people have a right to resist. Sometimes that manifests in extreme violence which I do not justify but point out that it happens - such as with the Algerians against the French, the IRA etc. The way to stop it is to end occupations and give people their rights. Is that too hard to understand?
If your case against Israel rests on a new definition of "genocide" as does Amnesty International's, Bt'salem's and the Republic of Ireland's application to join South Africa's application to the International Court of Justice, and which has yet to have been endorsed by any competent court of jurisdiction, then maybe the IDF's conduct in Gaza isn't a genocide.
Holding Israel to standards against which no other country is held is a textbook case of Example 8 of the IHRA's working definition of antisemitism.
On the other hand, Hamas, Hezbollah, the Islamic Republic of Iran and the Houthis -- who fairly recently succeeded in wiping out the last of one of the world's oldest Jewish communities in Yemen after 20 years of pledging "death to the Jews" -- probably do belong in the genocide dock. That the seven-fronted war that Hamas kicked off on October 7, 2023 hasn't accomplished what the late Yahya Sinwar set out to do -- believing he'd be aided by Sunni jihaddists from all over the region and not just Iranian proxies -- isn't a legal defense.
The genocide convention isn't what Amnesty International, Bt'salem, the Republic of Ireland and other "critics of Israel" are using to judge Israel. This is not that hard to check out, but you didn't. And none of these parties and yourself included are privy to the evidence that the ICJ is weighing in order to make its decision when it finally does.
The problem isn't that you are a socialist, though that proves your economic illiteracy. The problem is that you are suicidal. Your comment about antisemitism as a minor problem in the UK is humorous. You clearly didn't major in statistics.
Pro tip, citing Wikipedia shows your lack of seriousness. Go read an actual book.
Show me the data that British Jews suffer discrimination in employment, criminal justice, education, housing, immigration, healthcare etc. The reality is that we don't.
How about I show you two dead jews leaving synagogue in Manchester. Or Maccabi fans not being permitted to attend a football match due to security concerns. Or a British man being arrested for wearing a star of david because it's a 'provocation.' Or Jewish students and professors being harassed and excluded at university clubs, lectures, or having to endure swastikas drawn across campus and verbal abuse from classmates and professors. Here's a BBC article on the topic (hardly a bastion of pro-Israel reporting) https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/crl0p2xk4w3o
Mr. Borsley I have deleted my mistake. Once again Mr. Borsley I sincerely apologize for that.
Lebo Von Lo~Debar
Former/Always 82nd Airborne Infantryman, Disabled Veteran for Life, & Author of the book, "The Separation of Corporation and State" subtitled "Common Sense and the Two-Party Crisis" Available on Amazon.
Yes I did Mr. Borsley I meant to direct that at Marc Please forgive me Sir.
Lebo Von Lo~Debar
Former/Always 82nd Airborne Infantryman, Disabled Veteran for Life, & Author of the book, "The Separation of Corporation and State" subtitled "Common Sense and the Two-Party Crisis" Available on Amazon.
You stupid fucking cow. The Palestinian people aren’t occupied by anyone except for Hamas , which is a Jew hating death cult. Take your own Jew hatred somewhere else.
Why don't you just come out and say you hate Jewish People Marc? Wouldn't that be easier Marc to just post, "I HATE JEWS," instead of pretending you are a rational human being explaining away your hatred for Jews. That is exactly what the nazis did.
Lebo Von Lo~Debar
Former/Always 82nd Airborne Infantryman, Disabled Veteran for Life, & Author of the book, "The Separation of Corporation and State" subtitled "Common Sense and the Two-Party Crisis" Available on Amazon.
Of course I believe in "equal rights," but I don't believe in a organized crime cult called Islam, which teaches its cult followers it's okay to lie to people to advance the crime cult known as Islam. As far as your PAL's goes, here is what I have to say...the world would be a better place without the islam cult.
"From the border of the sea Israel will be FREE!!!"
Lebo Von Lo~Debar
Former/Always 82nd Airborne Infantryman, Disabled Veteran for Life, & Author of the book, "The Separation of Corporation and State" subtitled "Common Sense and the Two-Party Crisis" Available on Amazon.
Marc your arguments are so juvenile and ill formed it's hard to know where to start. I'm going to keep this brief:
There is no genocide in Gaza. Media may declare it so, associate professors may declare it so, but any fair reading of the facts shows that none of Israel’s actions are genocidal. What other genocidal force treats its enemies in their hospitals, warns a civilian population of impending attacks to target enemy terrorists, immunizes children from polio, and ceases hostilities once they achieve their war aims? If you can cite another example of this please do.
‘Decent people’ as you say don't normally call for the death of conscripted soldiers wherever they can be found, including on streets in foreign countries. Vylan has repeatedly called for the death of Zionists - essentially, all Jews- wherever they are. There's a word for that: terrorism.
If you understood anything about the history of the Middle East you would know that Israel has not occupied Gaza since 2005, and only came to occupy Gaza in ‘67 because Arabs that mounted an attempted genocidal war against Israel (they did not hide their motives) failed. When you lose a war the victorious side is under no obligation to say ‘give it another try!’
Where under international law is armed resistance justified? And if it is, does that mean that rape, torture, and holding hostages is justified? Pretty sure the Geneva conventions bans all of those things.
The racist right loves Israel? Can you please show your receipts? Tucker Carlson, Candace Owens, Dave Smith, are just a few examples of the ‘racist right’ that hate Israel. Oh and the racist left hates Istael too. What's your theory of the case about that?
Maccabi fans are all racist hooligans who pose a danger to the local community? Again, where are your receipts? No doubt there are racists in all fan bases, all communities period. But where are the riots and history of racist attacks caused by Maccabi fans? And mind you, if you cite Amsterdam, you will merely prove to any sentient being that you are in fact the racist (and a moron.)
I could go on, but what's the point? I somehow doubt that you are persuadable by facts. So enjoy going on and spreading your blood libel about Jews and watch as anti-Jewish crimes continue to explode across the West.
I'm going to keep this brief: you are a fact-free zone. The only fact is we are on opposite sides of the political spectrum and you appear to be on the far right.
The only people who have been occupying Palestinians is Hamas. Since 2005. Responsibility where it’s due. When Israel left in 2005, they left infrastructure that Hamas purposely destroyed and never replaced. Hamas used billions of aid dollars not to help Palestinians but to build a war machine (and live in luxury anywhere but Gaza). Meanwhile, there are 2 million living in Israel and many have left Gaza to Israel so they could live peacefully and as equals. Please learn to include Hamas when talking about occupying Gaza.
Ethno-states are wonderful - they're a vehicle for unique ethnicities to live their traditions, express their cultural heritage, and nurture their own self determination and evolution. Imagine if we didn't have ethno-states. Everywhere would be one flat, corporate, McDonald's monoculture with no unique identity.
Despite another very considered honest and thoughtful piece we still see the shills for the antisemites/antiZionists unable to be quiet. It seems that we have passed a watershed here in the UK and in Europe. There is no cogent argument backed with facts that will change these fellow travellers - in the main with no skin in the game but who cannot resist the opportunity to share their hateful bias. Maybe the our time is up here and in Europe and we have to pack our tents and steal away in the night. And it all could have been so different and so so much better for all.
This post hit me particularly strongly. I'm from Norway and it's the exact same here. Since 7 October 2023, I feel like a veil has been lifted from my eyes. Suddenly people I considered reasonable, my comrades, my friends and even my family would start saying the most outrageous things and I'd never heard from them before in any other context: Local politicians from left parties would make posts questioning rape allegations on 7 October (what happened to believing women?), and what stuck with me wasn't even the posts, it was that there was no accountability. There was no backlash, I felt like I was being gaslit. It happened time and time again, where respected journalists would just not ask or dive into detail about "anti-Zionist" statements, but gloss over it even though a line hadn't blatantly been crossed.
I was, and still am, so disillusioned and disappointed.
While the repulsive mainstreaming of this violent Jew hatred as “revolutionary” vexes us now, I promise us all that in a few years, people will be paying big money to have their digital footprints scrubbed of this Neo Jihadism.
Strongly echo this. Next question is what is the cost for the BBC (and much of the traditional media)? If there is no obvious downside to presenting a deliberately inaccurate view of events, then how is it amended? Arguably the cost is the decline of traditional media and its irrelevance.
I wasn't aware of Robinson-Foster's more explicit endorsement of violence against individual IDF soldiers and Zionists, which should have been brought up. But I don't think he came across that well in the interview. In the section about the Death to the IDF chant he was clearly being evasive, and he was slippery in other parts of the conversation, including discussion about his other lyrical messages. He certainly didn't take responsibility for what he's said publicly, and that was amply exposed by Theroux's sometimes indirect interview style.
Thank you, Dave. You’ve been able as usual to articulate what I’ve been feeling for far too long. And not just myself, I’m sure. I’m angry, fed up, irritated - I could go through half the OED and still have descriptions to spare. Why us? Again? I’m sick of explaining who we are, why we are. Leave us alone now, it’s getting really boring.
It is so hard to get a Jewish voice heard unless you are one of the ‘ as a Jew ‘ crowd. There are so many speaking out but if you post anywhere you get taken down or the hate is too intense. You cannot get books or articles picked up and so on.
Saying that , facts are irrelevant on this fight. Mostly it is a waste of time .
What we need is the strong non Jewish voice to be heard especially from government and justice, sport, media and art . Sadly that is what is lacking and not just lacking but actively hostile and complicit in this hate
Well said Jayne .. we have the likes of Douglas Murray, Colonel Richard Kemp and Brendan O’Neill. They need to be given a loud platform to speak, but with that, comes huge protection costs. They may also object to being in that spotlight.
There are many other advocates speaking up for Israel whose names I can’t fully recall .. Luai Ahmed a Yemeni born Swede and Loay Alshareef from the UAE.
Israel, together with the power of the diaspora should launch a worldwide campaign to educate the useful idiots and the misinformed. Providing knowledge to challenge the hate and prejudice which exists.
I prefer to defer to Sarah Hurwitz’s reclamation of the “as a Jew” moniker (it speaks to the majority of us, anyway) and I find it nourishing in its sanity, knowledge, and emotional and spiritual intellect. I share your call for non-jews to … well … grow a pair and speak out and call out (with educated voices) against antisemitism and hold antisemites of all types accountable (and not merely platform them as Theroux, Rogan and others do). We should also be demanding A LOT more Muslims, Arabs and all Westerners to be calling out jihadism, in general as the violence and colonialist-minded spread of that movement is at the heart of so much danger and death of millions.
I tried to speak out in the progressive professional space I inhabit. I wrote a long, clear and detailed description of the issues of antisemitism in our space; how only the 'right kind' of Jews are heard or platformed, and of the penalties and dismissal of Jews who support Israel.. resulting in the effective silencing of mainstream Jewish thought, or even information that counters what is being freely put out about Israel, etc. I sent it to the Jewish leadership in that community. (who are totally ideologically possessed by progressivism) and got in response recycled libels and glad-handing (Oh, yes...we care about antisemitism! It's all right wing antisemitism.. and Israel is causing antisemitism...) There is no way to be heard, I've been essentially drummed out of my professional circles.
Ditto. I am not Jewish but when I tried to suggest a student at my university, whose work I was moderating, shouldn’t get a first class degree mark for depicting Israelis as vermin ‘spreading disease’ in her ‘home’, I was told that no offence had been meant & the result of the bureaucratic waste-of-time that ensued (after I pushed for an investigation) was that this was not ‘technically’ antisemitic. Because one of the Jewish anti Zionists on the faculty said so. (The other Jewish lecturer resigned)
WTF
Exactly!
Within the progressive paradigm, Jews are white/white adjacent and so automatically not entitled to a State - with any resistance to that position being genocide.
Exactly
Also, look into the founding writings that define the philosophical paradigm that all of this ‘social justice’ has evolved into:
Derrick bell’s “space traders “… this philosophy at its root is steeped deeply in antisemitism
There are many of us on “the Left” or who are “Liberal” or “Progressive” who have been (long) horrified by and called out the antisemites in our communities, particularly as it undermines the very ideals we stand for, including being staunch, roped and unapologetically and informed Zionists. I urge you to seek out the interview that author Sarah Hurwitz did with Dan Senor and read her book, As a Jew.
I’ve heard so many ugly, antisemitic things over the past two years, said out loud and left unchallenged, and it’s shaken me deeply. Part of me wants to stay quiet to protect my peace, yet another part burns with anger and cannot stay silent. I know how futile it can feel to reason with minds already made up, yet saying nothing feels painful too. More and more, I am guided by the long lens, wanting to protect my children and any future grandchildren, and trying to choose carefully when to hold my tongue and when to honour my truth. Thanks Dave. With warmth and a tired heart, Debbie.
Indeed. We have also heard so many ugly things from Jewish supremacists that are giving the Nazis a run for their money yet we are yet to see any consequences of that kind of nastiness. It’s not okay to be a genocidal Jewish supremacist. There is a cost for that to pay.
If you aren’t already, I recommend following @NeverAlone. And reading Sarah Hurwitz’s book, As a Jew (or just find some of the interviews she has given, including the one she did with Dan Senor and NeverAlong)
Thank you. Warmly 🌺
About time. I am not Jewish, I am so done with reasonable responses to a cult who has plainly demonstrated since Oct 7 that their pets had crossed a line even for them,the speed at which they turned themselves inside out was chilling, the reactions were pre planned actions. The WORD came from somewhere at sickening speed. And they all bowed down. I am a nobody in the great scheme of things but I won't reason with or rebut. I have attacked from the off. They can show me their f.........ing pockets, was that a Qatari note I spied?? People who tried to guilt me for Pallenazi suffering and 'the good Jews said' got short shrift. Here's something to think about, some of these people started to private message me, were 'nice' to me. I told them not to, I preferred to answer them generally, in a group as I would never knowingly speak to a rapist or rape supporter in real life. No quarter given. I saw Jews asking their non Jewish friends to speak out. I did not. I had social media friends with whom I agreed on most things and would defend if they were wronged. It took them months to comment on my posts, several have come out in support of Israel and Jews in general. Of their own volition. Their conscience won. STOP being nice to people who would harm you. Rant over, much love to my Jewish friends, we just haven't met. Yet.
Something that stood out to me from your article: 'And all the while, Jewish voices try to patiently explain the facts, as if facts are all these people are missing.' It may be because of the circles I move in, it may be because we're scared to speak out, but I am so unaware of strong Jewish voices with mainstream or 'progressive' cut-through. From my experience, that does form part of the problem, whether certain people would be inclined to listen to those voices or not.
They get immediate;y silenced or thrown out. The only “progressive-except-when-it-comes-to-us Jewish voices admitted into the mainstream are either part of the problem, including cutting out legitimate progressive Jewish and unapologetically Zionist voices. So I just seek them out more and try to promote them more (especially to other Jews and allies and people who think they are allies but aren’t really doing a good job). I like Sarah Hurwitz, the folks from the Hartmann Institute, Hen Mazzig, in particular. I also look for progressive Israeli Zionist voices (Jewish and non-Jewish) who are excellent at showcasing life in Israel. (Again, Hen Mazzig, Noa Tishby, the comedian YonGruber and so many others).
This is exactly my experience.
Angry writing. Much needed.
Strangely Dave doesn't mention the Palestinians and their right to resist as an occupied people and the genocide committed by Israel and the IDF. I wonder if it were Jews penned into Gaza he'd think differently.
Also Dave knows full well that the racist right love Israel because it's an ethno-state. Why does he think Tommy Robinson gets such a warm welcome?
And does he approve of Maccabi Tel Aviv fans gloating in the death of Palestinian children? The club itself recognises it has racist fans.
As for Bobby Vylan and Louis Theroux, they come across as decent compassionate people. At the end of the day you either believe in human rights for all or you don't.
And what does Dave mean by a cost? What more does he want - as though there hasn't been 10 years or more of the Israel lobby exacting costs on us.
The fact you go straight to Gaza and the “Israel Lobby” as a justification for whatever people want to say and do about Jews makes you very much part of the problem.
You didn't mention the Palestinians and the genocide and war crimes perpetrated by Israel. If you think this is minor detail you're mistaken.
You misrepresented what was said in Theroux's interview for your political end not for truth.
I don't understand what more cost you want - you have reliable Zionist administrations in the west and authoritarian action taken in many places against Palestinian voices - at universities, action groups, doctors... You got rid of socialists in Labour including many Jewish socialists. You've even got the government siding with racist football thugs.
What more do you want?
I'll bet you were well paid to post this, you don't speak for all Jews
What do you mean by the “right to resist as an occupied people"? What does it include and not include? Without some clarification, how can anybody know whether they agree or disagree with you? And how is Tommy Robinson relevant? Do you have any evidence that Rich supports Robinson and those in Israel who like him? And what do you understand by "zionists" and what would be involved fighting them, as favoured by the “compassionate” Mr Vylan? And what exactly is the goal of the armed resistance that you with Mr Vylan seem to favour? Is it just to kill as many Jews as possible? Or do you have something a bit more positive in mind? And how do you feel about the fact that the Jewish community experiences more religious hate crime per head than any other community in the UK? Is that a matter of no concern to you? Do you think the Palestinian people benefit in some way from this situation? It's hard to see how they could.
The Wikipedia entry on right to resist is clear - I'm surprised you're not aware of this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_right_of_armed_resistance
Louis was stating fact that Jewish exceptionalism is ceased on by the far right as justification for ethno-nationalism - you'd have to living in a bunker not to know this.
I'm Jewish but the wrong sort of Jew for Dave Rich - a socialist Jew. Antisemitism is a minor prejudice in the UK but saying that doesn't defend Israel or sell books. Or get a very well paid job at the CST!
And of course like Dave you have no words for the Palestinian genocide.
And when you defend the right to rape and murder, you are being a racist antisemitic scum.
I totally agree. You should never defend the right to rape or murder.
Rape is never OK (CBS):
> A member of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's Likud party, speaking Monday at a meeting of lawmakers, justified the rape and abuse of Palestinian prisoners, shouting angrily at colleagues questioning the alleged behavior that anything was legitimate to do to "terrorists" in custody.
> Lawmaker Hanoch Milwidsky was asked as he defended the alleged abuse whether it was legitimate, "to insert a stick into a person's rectum?"
> "Yes!" he shouted in reply to his fellow parliamentarian. "If he is a Nukhba [Hamas militant], everything is legitimate to do! Everything!"
Murder is never OK (Ch14):
> A heated confrontation at the cabinet meeting regarding those approaching the yellow line in the Gaza Strip:
> Deputy Chief of Staff: Adults shoot at them, but a child and a donkey stop them.
> Ben Gvir: We must shoot at a child and a donkey too! Enough with being merciful and accepting what happened until October 6.
> Dichter: "It’s like the field operative who worked with the Bedouin sheikh and asked him who lives here and who lives there. And that Bedouin didn’t give any information.
> He saw someone riding a donkey from afar, asked who was on the donkey, and still got no information. So the field operative asked him, ‘Who’s the donkey, the one below or the one above?’ And he answered, ‘The donkey is the one who can’t tell the difference between them.’
> We don’t have to jump straight to saying we need to shoot at everyone who approaches the fence. The military people are here, and I really hope they’re not listening to you."
> Ben Gvir: Yes, we must shoot! Because it’s like what happened with King Saul, who at first spared the sheep, then the donkeys, then the children, then the women, then the terrorists—anyone who approaches needs to know they’re taking a risk!
> Defense Minister Katz concluded: Anyone who approaches the fence needs to know they will be harmed.
Assume its true, this lawmaker is a moron. Except Marc is justifying rape and mass murder of completely innocent people so he is clearly far, far worse.
Where did I justify that? There was no mass rape in any case as no evidence has been put forward, just as there were no beheaded babies - and the Israel has been found to have killed a lot of their own on 7 October.
My point is occupied people have a right to resist. Sometimes that manifests in extreme violence which I do not justify but point out that it happens - such as with the Algerians against the French, the IRA etc. The way to stop it is to end occupations and give people their rights. Is that too hard to understand?
If your case against Israel rests on a new definition of "genocide" as does Amnesty International's, Bt'salem's and the Republic of Ireland's application to join South Africa's application to the International Court of Justice, and which has yet to have been endorsed by any competent court of jurisdiction, then maybe the IDF's conduct in Gaza isn't a genocide.
Holding Israel to standards against which no other country is held is a textbook case of Example 8 of the IHRA's working definition of antisemitism.
On the other hand, Hamas, Hezbollah, the Islamic Republic of Iran and the Houthis -- who fairly recently succeeded in wiping out the last of one of the world's oldest Jewish communities in Yemen after 20 years of pledging "death to the Jews" -- probably do belong in the genocide dock. That the seven-fronted war that Hamas kicked off on October 7, 2023 hasn't accomplished what the late Yahya Sinwar set out to do -- believing he'd be aided by Sunni jihaddists from all over the region and not just Iranian proxies -- isn't a legal defense.
The genocide convention was unanimously adopted by the United Nations General Assembly on 9 December 1948. This is easy to check but you didn't.
The genocide convention isn't what Amnesty International, Bt'salem, the Republic of Ireland and other "critics of Israel" are using to judge Israel. This is not that hard to check out, but you didn't. And none of these parties and yourself included are privy to the evidence that the ICJ is weighing in order to make its decision when it finally does.
What genocide convention are genocide scholars using then? Is there another one. Please cite it.
You’ve ignored my questions. I guess they were too difficult.
I answered your questions. You either believe in equal rights for all people and international law or you don't. This isn't hard.
Antisemitic scumbag
The problem isn't that you are a socialist, though that proves your economic illiteracy. The problem is that you are suicidal. Your comment about antisemitism as a minor problem in the UK is humorous. You clearly didn't major in statistics.
Pro tip, citing Wikipedia shows your lack of seriousness. Go read an actual book.
Show me the data that British Jews suffer discrimination in employment, criminal justice, education, housing, immigration, healthcare etc. The reality is that we don't.
How about I show you two dead jews leaving synagogue in Manchester. Or Maccabi fans not being permitted to attend a football match due to security concerns. Or a British man being arrested for wearing a star of david because it's a 'provocation.' Or Jewish students and professors being harassed and excluded at university clubs, lectures, or having to endure swastikas drawn across campus and verbal abuse from classmates and professors. Here's a BBC article on the topic (hardly a bastion of pro-Israel reporting) https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/crl0p2xk4w3o
I agree that Israel puts Jews at risk - that's obvious.
But British Jews do not suffer societal discrimination. In fact there's barely much of the old Jewish working class left.
Mr. Borsley I have deleted my mistake. Once again Mr. Borsley I sincerely apologize for that.
Lebo Von Lo~Debar
Former/Always 82nd Airborne Infantryman, Disabled Veteran for Life, & Author of the book, "The Separation of Corporation and State" subtitled "Common Sense and the Two-Party Crisis" Available on Amazon.
https://www.amazon.com/Separation-Corporation-State-Common-Two-Party/dp/B0FFBPVQ
What have I said that makes you think I hate Jewish people? Are you confusing me with someone else?
Yes I did Mr. Borsley I meant to direct that at Marc Please forgive me Sir.
Lebo Von Lo~Debar
Former/Always 82nd Airborne Infantryman, Disabled Veteran for Life, & Author of the book, "The Separation of Corporation and State" subtitled "Common Sense and the Two-Party Crisis" Available on Amazon.
https://www.amazon.com/Separation-Corporation-State-Common-Two-Party/dp/B0FFBPVQB9
You stupid fucking cow. The Palestinian people aren’t occupied by anyone except for Hamas , which is a Jew hating death cult. Take your own Jew hatred somewhere else.
Not strange at all that racism scum diverts and engages in Jew-bating. Its routine.
Why don't you just come out and say you hate Jewish People Marc? Wouldn't that be easier Marc to just post, "I HATE JEWS," instead of pretending you are a rational human being explaining away your hatred for Jews. That is exactly what the nazis did.
Lebo Von Lo~Debar
Former/Always 82nd Airborne Infantryman, Disabled Veteran for Life, & Author of the book, "The Separation of Corporation and State" subtitled "Common Sense and the Two-Party Crisis" Available on Amazon.
https://www.amazon.com/Separation-Corporation-State-Common-Two-Party/dp/B0FFBPVQ
I'm Jewish - why would I I hate my family and Jewish friends? I believe in equal rights for all people - don't you?
Sure you are Marc.
Of course I believe in "equal rights," but I don't believe in a organized crime cult called Islam, which teaches its cult followers it's okay to lie to people to advance the crime cult known as Islam. As far as your PAL's goes, here is what I have to say...the world would be a better place without the islam cult.
"From the border of the sea Israel will be FREE!!!"
Lebo Von Lo~Debar
Former/Always 82nd Airborne Infantryman, Disabled Veteran for Life, & Author of the book, "The Separation of Corporation and State" subtitled "Common Sense and the Two-Party Crisis" Available on Amazon.
https://www.amazon.com/Separation-Corporation-State-Common-Two-Party/dp/B0FFBPVQ
If you have a problem with ethno-nationalism I presume you’re in favor of dismantling of all the Muslim/Arabic states?
if it was really “Resistance” then why on earth would ANYONE stop to torture and rape people? Seriously.
Marc your arguments are so juvenile and ill formed it's hard to know where to start. I'm going to keep this brief:
There is no genocide in Gaza. Media may declare it so, associate professors may declare it so, but any fair reading of the facts shows that none of Israel’s actions are genocidal. What other genocidal force treats its enemies in their hospitals, warns a civilian population of impending attacks to target enemy terrorists, immunizes children from polio, and ceases hostilities once they achieve their war aims? If you can cite another example of this please do.
‘Decent people’ as you say don't normally call for the death of conscripted soldiers wherever they can be found, including on streets in foreign countries. Vylan has repeatedly called for the death of Zionists - essentially, all Jews- wherever they are. There's a word for that: terrorism.
If you understood anything about the history of the Middle East you would know that Israel has not occupied Gaza since 2005, and only came to occupy Gaza in ‘67 because Arabs that mounted an attempted genocidal war against Israel (they did not hide their motives) failed. When you lose a war the victorious side is under no obligation to say ‘give it another try!’
Where under international law is armed resistance justified? And if it is, does that mean that rape, torture, and holding hostages is justified? Pretty sure the Geneva conventions bans all of those things.
The racist right loves Israel? Can you please show your receipts? Tucker Carlson, Candace Owens, Dave Smith, are just a few examples of the ‘racist right’ that hate Israel. Oh and the racist left hates Istael too. What's your theory of the case about that?
Maccabi fans are all racist hooligans who pose a danger to the local community? Again, where are your receipts? No doubt there are racists in all fan bases, all communities period. But where are the riots and history of racist attacks caused by Maccabi fans? And mind you, if you cite Amsterdam, you will merely prove to any sentient being that you are in fact the racist (and a moron.)
I could go on, but what's the point? I somehow doubt that you are persuadable by facts. So enjoy going on and spreading your blood libel about Jews and watch as anti-Jewish crimes continue to explode across the West.
I'm going to keep this brief: you are a fact-free zone. The only fact is we are on opposite sides of the political spectrum and you appear to be on the far right.
That Sartre quote. Again. That is all.
The only people who have been occupying Palestinians is Hamas. Since 2005. Responsibility where it’s due. When Israel left in 2005, they left infrastructure that Hamas purposely destroyed and never replaced. Hamas used billions of aid dollars not to help Palestinians but to build a war machine (and live in luxury anywhere but Gaza). Meanwhile, there are 2 million living in Israel and many have left Gaza to Israel so they could live peacefully and as equals. Please learn to include Hamas when talking about occupying Gaza.
All lies Jamie - you people never give up.
You are woefully misinformed
Ethno-states are wonderful - they're a vehicle for unique ethnicities to live their traditions, express their cultural heritage, and nurture their own self determination and evolution. Imagine if we didn't have ethno-states. Everywhere would be one flat, corporate, McDonald's monoculture with no unique identity.
and the mask slips, take your genocidal thoughts elsewhere
Despite another very considered honest and thoughtful piece we still see the shills for the antisemites/antiZionists unable to be quiet. It seems that we have passed a watershed here in the UK and in Europe. There is no cogent argument backed with facts that will change these fellow travellers - in the main with no skin in the game but who cannot resist the opportunity to share their hateful bias. Maybe the our time is up here and in Europe and we have to pack our tents and steal away in the night. And it all could have been so different and so so much better for all.
This is simply excellent.
What can I do to fight antisemitism?
today I liked this post.
This post hit me particularly strongly. I'm from Norway and it's the exact same here. Since 7 October 2023, I feel like a veil has been lifted from my eyes. Suddenly people I considered reasonable, my comrades, my friends and even my family would start saying the most outrageous things and I'd never heard from them before in any other context: Local politicians from left parties would make posts questioning rape allegations on 7 October (what happened to believing women?), and what stuck with me wasn't even the posts, it was that there was no accountability. There was no backlash, I felt like I was being gaslit. It happened time and time again, where respected journalists would just not ask or dive into detail about "anti-Zionist" statements, but gloss over it even though a line hadn't blatantly been crossed.
I was, and still am, so disillusioned and disappointed.
I am so sorry it's come to this. I'm having a lot of arguments with friends about this issue.
While the repulsive mainstreaming of this violent Jew hatred as “revolutionary” vexes us now, I promise us all that in a few years, people will be paying big money to have their digital footprints scrubbed of this Neo Jihadism.
But the Internet is forever.
Strongly echo this. Next question is what is the cost for the BBC (and much of the traditional media)? If there is no obvious downside to presenting a deliberately inaccurate view of events, then how is it amended? Arguably the cost is the decline of traditional media and its irrelevance.
I wasn't aware of Robinson-Foster's more explicit endorsement of violence against individual IDF soldiers and Zionists, which should have been brought up. But I don't think he came across that well in the interview. In the section about the Death to the IDF chant he was clearly being evasive, and he was slippery in other parts of the conversation, including discussion about his other lyrical messages. He certainly didn't take responsibility for what he's said publicly, and that was amply exposed by Theroux's sometimes indirect interview style.
Thank you, Dave. You’ve been able as usual to articulate what I’ve been feeling for far too long. And not just myself, I’m sure. I’m angry, fed up, irritated - I could go through half the OED and still have descriptions to spare. Why us? Again? I’m sick of explaining who we are, why we are. Leave us alone now, it’s getting really boring.